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▲The Fisherman and His Wife (1857)sites.pitt.edu
81 points by andsoitis 3 days ago | 69 comments
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kej 8 minutes ago [-]
There is a similar Dr. Seuss story that had been published in a magazine but more or less lost until being republished in a collection of shorter works in 2011: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Bippolo_Seed_and_Other_Los...
YeGoblynQueenne 10 hours ago [-]
Possibly following from this article?

To understand how AI will reconfigure humanity, try this German fairytale

https://www.theguardian.com/books/2025/sep/16/ai-artificial-...

zh3 2 hours ago [-]
Or even the similar story on CNN - "The media is learning what happens when you give a mouse a cookie" (as the article says: "Spoiler alert: The mouse has some more demands")

* https://edition.cnn.com/2025/09/19/business/media-business-t...

bloak 9 hours ago [-]
I saw the title of that article a few days ago and didn't read it, but today I noticed the name of the author. Clemens Setz has written some good stuff.
zackmorris 5 hours ago [-]
I had this realization a few years ago after experiencing various forms of manifestation to bring things into my life, improve my health, etc. Tech and especially AI seem to be catalysts that amplify the effect that our inner reality has on the outer co-created reality (if we believe in duality), just like with Arthur C. Clarke's third law:

https://www.thoughtco.com/what-are-clarkes-laws-2699067

So D&D stats like wisdom and charisma that were easily overlooked in our modern world are starting to surpass, say, intelligence when it comes to self-actualization/ascension.

If we follow this to its logical conclusion, then there are magical laws to consider, if such things could possibly be summarized in words:

https://www.themystica.com/the-laws-of-magic/

http://www.neopagan.net/AT_Laws.html

I believe that every use of magic comes with a cost, which is unknown if the wielder isn't mindful of it. In the simplest terms: using magic to satisfy one's ego by acquiring something deprives someone of something - often the wielder.

There are a few ways to minimize the consequence of using magic:

1) Sacrifice something of value for the magic to consume

2) Appeal to a higher power through prayer, the law of attraction, etc like a paladin so that the spirit bears the cost

3) Act in alignment with the heart so that creation has a chance to help behind the scenes (loosely related to #2)

4) Avoid the use of magic altogether and stick to objectivity, that free will is a fantasy, that reason supersedes meaning, etc

I'm sure I'm missing some, as I'm relearning childish notions around magical thinking.

I think what we're seeing when our most wealthy and powerful leaders denounce empathy is the outward expression of #4. Because empathy allows one to simulate the subjective experience of others in the mind, which opens the door to meaning, the golden rule, reincarnation, even the multiverse and parallel timelines. On the one hand they say that magic is dead, but on the other they use tools like psychology/economics/politics that blur the line between science and magic in order to gain control.

The ultimate expression of tech as magic might be something like the Emperor in Star Wars. Total impeccability and plausible deniability from accountability, yet no soul.

What I've come to realize in my own life is that feeling the magic passing through us is akin to shifting realities. It can't be studied scientifically, because the observer may see outcomes that differ from those of other observers in the previous reality. Science may be deterministic on one timeline, but stochastic across timelines. Which ties into consciousness, quantum mechanics, synchronicity, pantheism, the many faces of God as every living thing, etc.

Whether we influence the world through our actions of manipulate it through control of our attention, karmic consequences still come. The inward flow of psychic energy for personal gain creates a sense of waiting for the other shoe to drop. Whereas the outward flow in service to others creates a sense of abundance. Life becomes a dance of working with these energies, either low-vibration or high-vibration, fear or love.

Where I'm going with this is that this rediscovered power of love has the potential to shift humanity into a reality where our demons can't follow. We are temporarily on this one which seems to be fraught with danger because maybe some part of our soul felt that our help was needed here most. We can shift to a gentler timeline if we wish, or continue playing the life we paid a quarter for in the astral plane and do some world building here.

From a Zen perspective, I've said too much, yet nothing at all. I hope this helps someone find a little peace and light amidst the separation and darkness of these times.

IAmBroom 3 hours ago [-]
Regarding your link:

http://www.neopagan.net/AT_Laws.html

If magick were real, the person behind that MySpace-worthy website background would have been cursed into oblivion by now.

Ergo, magick isn't real.

kjkjadksj 2 hours ago [-]
Pascals wager suggest it is in your interest to believe in the supernatural
the_sleaze_ 1 hours ago [-]
Pascals wager involves God and the consequence of an eternity spent in either heaven or hell, not magick.
bloak 9 hours ago [-]
One of my favourites. The Grimms' original is in a Low German dialect but the style is so beautifully simple that if you know the story and have a good knowledge of standard German then you can probably understand almost everything:

https://de.wikisource.org/wiki/Von_dem_Fischer_un_syner_Fru_...

Nashooo 8 hours ago [-]
It's crazy how this is almost perfectly readable as a Dutch person.
bgnn 1 hours ago [-]
Right? I'm fluent in Dutch but I can't read German. This is more readable than Afrikaans.
rob74 8 hours ago [-]
Without being very familiar with any of them, I suspect Low German and Dutch are pretty closely related?
derfniw 8 hours ago [-]
Very close, and I can confirm that as someone who knows "standard Dutch" it is fairly easy to read.

It wouldn't surprise me if it is even easier for someone from the german-dutch border region who is fluent in a local dialect.

tetromino_ 5 hours ago [-]
There's a similar Russian tale in blank verse by Pushkin: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Tale_of_the_Fisherman_and_... - probably either inspired directly by the Low German story or mediated through a version told to him in his childhood by his nurse (who in turn heard it from someone else).

In the Russian version, the fisherman's wife's final and mistaken wish is to be the Queen of the Sea, with the fish as her servant.

sfink 1 hours ago [-]
I like to think of myself as having modest desires, but this story does a good job of making me wonder: am I the fisherman or the wife? I don't want a palace, but I wouldn't want a filthy shack either. Which of my desires, for myself or for others, are truly reasonable? I'd be fine with health and happiness, but none of us is entitled to those by birthright.

It's easy to read this story and think "Hah! Look at that greedy wife, I would not keep asking for more." But... would you ask for anything at all, then? And if you did and got it, would you be satisfied forever? All of history suggests that it is human to keep ratcheting it up.

And on the other hand, is it really "better" to be the fisherman? He may be satisfied with living in a filthy shack, but hey, he's out fishing every day. She's living in it. Is he really in a position to judge his wife for wanting something better?

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Mlller 8 hours ago [-]
This tale of the Grimmsʼ collection was contributed (in a Low German dialect) by Philipp Otto Runge. His main profession was painting, and he designed a color model using a sphere.[1]

His interest in colors certainly left a trace in the elaboration how the sea and the sky are colored and change their colors.

Runge contributed another tale, “Von dem Machandelboom” ‘Of / about the juniper tree’. Both tales were held in high regard by the Grimms. They saw some traits as typical or classical for the genre, e.g. the repetitions, parallelisms with rising tension.

[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Philipp_Otto_Runge#Runge_and_c... –

shoo 10 hours ago [-]
What moral do you take away from this story?
Brendinooo 8 hours ago [-]
Right up until the end I'd say it's a good illustration of the hedonic treadmill.

But I'm really not sure what to make of the ending.

> "Oh," he said, "she wants to become like God."

> "Go home. She is sitting in her filthy shack again."

This is ambiguous. The flounder simply acknowledges a change in state without saying whether he actually fulfilled the request or not.

If he rejected the request, then it's a tale about checking ambition, trying to be like God, etc.

But if he accepted the request? Then it's advancing a very different idea of what God is like.

I wonder if the original German is equally ambiguous...

EDIT: I suppose she's not making the sun and moon rise, so maybe I'm overcomplicating it.

palmotea 2 hours ago [-]
> But I'm really not sure what to make of the ending.

>> "Oh," he said, "she wants to become like God."

>> "Go home. She is sitting in her filthy shack again."

Jesus was poor and humble and God. Like, remember which cup the Holy Grail was in the test at the end of Indiana Jones and the Last Crusade?

She exactly got her wish, it just wasn't what she expected because she was a greedy fool.

Edit: and this take is interesting: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=45303908. It might even be a happy ending for her.

dtf 3 hours ago [-]
The punchline left me wondering why the wife didn't simply ask for something else after being returned to the filthy shack. Had she finally found contentment or enlightenment? Did the flounder finally call time?
RajT88 7 hours ago [-]
In the New Testament, Jesus had a lot to say about wealth and power being bad. This feels like a reference to all that.

In my head, all that Sunday school I had internalized as a kid makes me think, "This is not the kind of church Jesus would preach at" when I see a really nice church where wealthy people attend.

Some Christians talk about "mammonites" or "the cult of mammon":

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mammon

zubiaur 6 hours ago [-]
Old too: But the people refused to listen to the voice of Samuel; they said, “No! but we are determined to have a king over us, so that we also may be like other nations, and that our king may govern us and go out before us and fight our battles.”
Brendinooo 6 hours ago [-]
I don't think it's as simple as "wealth and power being bad". More that

- wealth and power are not reliable proxies for favor and righteousness (as many in Jesus's day thought)

- wealth and power come with unique temptations

Jesus also said "make friends for yourselves by means of unrighteous wealth, so that when it fails they may receive you into the eternal dwellings" and there's a bunch of proverbs that talk about how the diligent prosper.

A lot of wealthy people are really generous.

IAmBroom 3 hours ago [-]
I think Jesus is really, really, really unequivocal about wealth being bad.

And Luke 16:9, which you quoted, is taken out of context.

> A lot of wealthy people are really generous.

Not so much that they give away all that they have, as Jesus commanded. So, more like "kinda really generous, but not enough that it hurts".

[I am an atheist, but I will not stand for antithetical repurposing of religious texts.]

potato3732842 6 hours ago [-]
Pretty much every society ever has the same things to say about how wealth/power enables people to behave poorly.
the_gipsy 7 hours ago [-]
We don't know exactly. Maybe the fish silently punished the wife. Maybe god would simply live a simple life.

Only God knows.

IAmBroom 3 hours ago [-]
Ooh, I like that possibility.

Maybe she spent a near-eternity in agony with all that power and responsibility, and wished it all away. "Genie...er, Fish, make me an all-powerful fish!!!"

graemep 6 hours ago [-]
Maybe the ambiguity is part of what makes it a good story?
bhaak 9 hours ago [-]
Some people are greedy and don't know when to stop when they have enough. The fisherman is notably not one of those people.

Older generations might have been most offended by the "becoming like God" part. The enchanted fish was willing to grant any wish that is in principle achievable by a human being, even the most ridiculous wish of becoming Pope.

But the moment the wish transcends that human realm it is turned down and punished.

I guess the theme of "becoming like God" resonates with the story from Adam and Eve's fall.

skobes 8 hours ago [-]
Interesting, you read it as if the fish said "You want to be like God? No, that's too far. Game over!"

But another reading is: God would have chosen the shack (grace to the humble, etc.) So she got her wish.

neogodless 4 hours ago [-]
Yes, I think...

> And they are sitting there even today.

... hints strongly that once that wish was granted, she stopped wanting something different.

balamatom 8 hours ago [-]
I was hoping for a "go home, she is as God", then he goes home and sees that she doesn't exist
thomasmg 8 hours ago [-]
My interpretation is that the fish didn't actually turn down and punish, but fulfilled the wish. It's just that the fish thought: to be like God means to be humble. She asks to be like God, true godliness is humility. So she did get what she wanted, but not in the way she thought. (BTW I'm not religious in the sense I go to church a lot, and don't even necessarily believe in God, but I do share many of the values of religion.)
lblume 7 hours ago [-]
But surely humility is only one attribute of God, and not the most relevant one. Omnipotence and omniscience are typically listed as more important aspects of the divine.
thomasmg 5 hours ago [-]
It depends on the religion. In Christianity, Islam, and some "the universe is a simulation" theories: yes. In other religions, god is not all that powerful.
watwut 7 hours ago [-]
> It's just that the fish thought: to be like God means to be humble.

In which religion is the God humble? It wont be Christianity for sure.

HankStallone 6 hours ago [-]
Being born to a human, growing up and living as one of them, and letting himself be tortured and killed by his own creation isn't humble?

You don't have to believe it, of course, but God humbling himself is pretty much the defining aspect of Christianity.

watwut 6 hours ago [-]
> Being born to a human, growing up and living as one of them, and letting himself be tortured and killed by his own creation isn't humble?

That is self sacrifice.

_bla_ 8 hours ago [-]
I don’t think of it as punishment. She gets her wish granted, she just did not understand that God does not care about the kind of shallow riches the fisherman’s wife is aiming for.
dsmurrell 9 hours ago [-]
That no matter how good your current dwelling is, your wife will always want upgrades.
gorjusborg 9 hours ago [-]
Unbounded greed will prevent you from enjoying the benefits of your life.
clausecker 9 hours ago [-]
If you give in to an unreasonable person's demands, that person will demand more and more until it all comes crashing down.
booleandilemma 9 hours ago [-]
So when product comes to you with stupid requirements, push back!
flux3125 6 hours ago [-]
Don't go above INT_MAX or you'll overflow back to -2147483648
immibis 3 hours ago [-]
Actually it's undefined behaviour. Undefined behaviour may legally include your castle growing wings and flying away to space.
atrew54231 7 hours ago [-]
I think the point is that when one believes that having their desires fulfilled will bring them happiness, or an end to desire itsself, that the material circumstances in which that person lives are completely irrelevant. In the case of the wife, the suffering she experiences from not having her desires fulfilled is the same whether she is living in a filthy shack or whether she is god. Her internal state is identical in both situations, so her becoming god and her becoming a poor fisherman's wife are exactly the same from a phenomonological perspective. The same could be said for the man. His satisfaction was the same whether he was living in the shack or the palace. What changed for him was the burden of having these material things and asking for more, knowing it wouldn't ultimately make him or his wife happy.

Or it could mean that due to the transient nature of all material things, anything gained will invariably break down eventually. All desire leads to loss.

Maybe it's both. I think it's both.

housebear 6 hours ago [-]
I read it as the fish returning her to her God-ordained state, as she was, from her magical-fish-given states of human appointed positions; that is, wealth and status coming from community rather than any kind of divine appointment—which is maybe also a Protestant dig at Papism?
potato3732842 6 hours ago [-]
There's a few potential pretty reasonable morals to draw from it that apply at the individual and various group levels.

The more jaded you are the less of them you'll reject but also the less of them you needed to be told.

Calavar 8 hours ago [-]
If you get into options trading, make sure to have a hard stopping point.
carlosjobim 8 hours ago [-]
Don't get married.
moffkalast 8 hours ago [-]
Don't get married... to a greedy psychopath.
FergusArgyll 8 hours ago [-]
I think the "straussian" reading is it's the husbands fault. He knows he's doing the wrong thing but he can't say no.

1) Listen to your conscience & speak up unambiguously

2) Something like "Victim blaming is correct in moderation"?

I don't know if I agree with that but it seems like an interpertation

serf 9 hours ago [-]
being a deity is a crap job, aim for Pope.
oulipo2 8 hours ago [-]
Am I the only one to read it as the fact that God is supposed to be humble, so that's why when she asks to be like God she's back to the shackle?
moffkalast 8 hours ago [-]
Smart fish, got her on a technicality ;)
drewchew 7 hours ago [-]
Classic genie move
8 hours ago [-]
buttetsu 5 hours ago [-]
Reading this story and the discussion in the thread have been a rare treat; surprises like these are why I love this site. Now I must find more of the Grimms' work!
littlecranky67 9 hours ago [-]
There is a german movie of the same title based on the story: https://www.imdb.com/title/tt0430097
alkyon 1 hours ago [-]
Another interesting one: Rumpelstiltskin

https://sites.pitt.edu/~dash/grimm055.html

clausecker 11 hours ago [-]
A famous fairytale from Germany.
fp64 7 hours ago [-]
Not to be confused with the Hokusai woodcut print titled "The dream of the fisherman's wife" (1814) (NSFW I guess?)
buttetsu 5 hours ago [-]
Thank you! I had no idea this existed, but it has now blown my mind. I didn't realize this kind of art existed back then and was so explicit.
IAmBroom 3 hours ago [-]
The filth you see about you today, is the same or cleaner than was imagined in the past.

There's nothing new about dirty minds; male monkeys will "pay" (give treats back) to see porn of female monkeys in heat.

epiccoleman 6 hours ago [-]
yeah, i think that's pretty clearly nsfw
bryanrasmussen 9 hours ago [-]
hmm, a sort of fractured fairy tales version https://medium.com/luminasticity/the-shark-and-the-surfer-fa...
epiccoleman 6 hours ago [-]
ha. weird.
lif 2 hours ago [-]
aka the fisherman and Gordon Gecko ;)
froggertoaster 6 hours ago [-]
I've always liked the slightly different ending: "I just want my wife to be happy." And she ends up in the shack. This one is a little different!
dudeinjapan 7 hours ago [-]
There is a similar episode of Frasier where he and his brother Niles keep trying to get into ever more exclusive tiers of the “Empire Club” in Seattle. One of my faves. https://frasier.fandom.com/wiki/The_Club
3 days ago [-]
kylebenzle 8 hours ago [-]
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